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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Aug 11, 2011 9:58am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Easier to preach than to practice

Was listening to 11/14/73 today and the HCS was so wonderful I played it twice. Then I went on and played other stuff twice ... a fantastic Dagwood Sandwich of a show. (China > Rider > Around > Truckin > TOO > Big River > TOO > Eyes > TOO > Wharf Rat > MAMU ... kinda arbitrary where to stop and start, really. It's all great.)

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Poster: piles70 Date: Aug 11, 2011 12:03pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Easier to preach than to practice

I'm ashamed to admit that I don't have that show on my ipod. I'm sure I've listened to it before, but it's probably been awhile.
I'm gonna have to put that show on the list of things to add this weekend.

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Poster: bkidwell Date: Aug 11, 2011 10:28am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Easier to preach than to practice

I always try to plug 11/14/73! I think you are getting a bit too exuberant with the ">" though, since the set-break happens between "Around" and "Truckin" and even the powers of the GD are probably not sufficient to make the set-break count as a segue :)

For me, nothing compares to October, November, December of 1973. The most intricate setlists, the most intense deep-space meltdowns, and Here Comes Sunshine at its peak. I would say it should be the next megabox after E72, but at the same time I dunno if I want all the band's greatest shows pulled out of community trading circulation and archive streaming.

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Aug 11, 2011 7:59pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Easier to preach than to practice

You're right. It should have read: Around > Ivesian experience with inclusion of incidental audience noise as part of the found-sound experiment > Truckin' > etc ...

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Aug 11, 2011 10:39am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Easier to preach than to practice

Nah, too many official releases from that period already.. what with the Winterland box, DPs 1, 14, 19, and Road Trips 4 from Denver. Not that there weren't already a lot of E72 releases, but that's one of their most famous tours and far easier to market as a complete collection.

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Poster: bkidwell Date: Aug 11, 2011 11:01am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hypothetical box sets

Well, don't forget that most of the official releases are "hacked up" to a greater or lesser extent, and that is a source of complaints for many. If they really are serious about making full-tour releases on an ongoing basis, it's hard for me to think what they could release that would be superior - I doubt they've been holding out secret pristine 1970 soundboards on us! As I said though, I'm also concerned about all the best SBDs becoming commercial-availability-only, so I'm not trying to advocate for the release, just saying that I don't think previous releases or sonic imperfections will be too much of a barrier to what they release.

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Aug 11, 2011 12:57pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hypothetical box sets

The soundboards are and would all still be available at the torrent sites. I don't see why stream-ability is so important. GDP should remaster and release everything...

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Poster: piles70 Date: Aug 12, 2011 5:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hypothetical box sets

You do realize that if they commercially released everything, 20 years from now when they got to the end of the catalog all the heads would be arguing about how could they have released the downright horrible 8/3/94 before they released the mearly mediocre 6/6/93.

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Poster: bkidwell Date: Aug 12, 2011 7:02am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 6/6/93 has a great playin jam!

While as a complete show, 6/6/93 isn't anything special, and even the Playin is flawed by a badly blown bridge and Weir's throat being toast, once the jam gets rolling, it is really a great version, with Jerry really assertive and almost providing a Grand Tour of the Garcia improvisational style. I think 6/6/93 PITB is almost as good as the much more famous 5/26/93 version, which has already been released.

So, even if the show is mediocre relative to the overall historical average of GD shows, it still contains some music of high quality. I listen to the 6/6/93 PITB quite frequently, it is in my rotation of favorite versions.

June of 93 actually has a lot of really tight and focused guitar work by Garcia, if any tour from post-Hornsby is to be released, the summer 93 midwest tour is about the best you can do, there is quite a bit worth listening to in it, not just this PITB jam, but also stuff like the Bird Song from 6/8, the Wharf Rat from 6/9, the Foolish Heart from 6/11, the post-Terrapin jam from 6/23 - some great stuff.

Thinking back, I really wish I had quit my job and sold a kidney so I could have seen the whole June 93 tour, I only saw two shows that summer (Soldier Field) and in comparison to the other shows I managed to see during the waning years, Jerry was playing guitar very well.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Aug 12, 2011 8:26am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 6/6/93 has a great playin jam!

I don't think I've ever heard 6/6, perhaps I'll give it a spin.

Jerry's overall recovery after the coma, as a guitarist, was pretty remarkable, but he never really gained back the same level of dexterity that he previously had. As he got older, his nearly perfect sense of timing and rhythm became all the more important.

I think that's what you see during the finer moments of this solid month of Grateful Dead shows, and during some of the better 90s shows. Both of the shows I saw that month - 6/8 and 6/9 in Detroit - as uneven but with terrific, even stunning, highlights during those two songs - Bird Song and Wharf Rat. I would add that I love the Bertha from 6/9, and the H>S>F ain't too shabby either!

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Poster: Quincy Date: Aug 12, 2011 9:07am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 6/6/93 has a great playin jam!

I usually just sit back and read, but must respond to and disagree with: "Jerry's overall recovery after the coma, as a guitarist, was pretty remarkable, but he never really gained back the same level of dexterity that he previously had."
Let's see, maybe I'll toss on the Tangled from the '90 live album, or Hampton '88 or... oh, nevermind...

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Aug 12, 2011 10:12am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 6/6/93 has a great playin jam!

I think we can all point to great songs and great shows from the late-80s and 90s. That's not really the point. I think Jerry was still a remarkable musician and guitarist even then. But his playing was never as consistently fast or as fluid as it was pre-coma, and he relied more on his ear and his sense of timing. Just my opinion.

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Poster: bkidwell Date: Aug 12, 2011 9:32am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 6/6/93 has a great playin jam!

I recall we've talked about these shows a bit before, June of 93 is one of my special interests, I agree with all your comments, and looked at in the context of the 65-95 run, June of 93 is important because Jerry switched to the Cripe guitar in the fall which really changed the sound a lot, Cutler replaced Healy in spring of 94, and, well, we all know the rest. The 93 summer tour is the last flash of the "Good ol Grateful Dead" sound with bright, assertive Jerry with plenty of distortion, right in the front and center of the mix, he had just written a couple new songs that were starting to find their feet, and the band responded to his tight playing with some good rhythmic snap in many places.

Of course, there are plenty of bummers about June 93 as well, like Bobby's shredded vocal cords, the arrival of several non-Jerry originals which are infamously irritating to most, and only a few bursts of really open jamming, but those things don't intrude on the high points, some really fine classic Jerry Garcia moments of masterful guitar playing, a deceptive late Indian Summer of warmth and energy. Even though there were still a few good moments to come later, there is still a "winter" quality to them, due to the crisp and dry sound of the Lightning Bolt guitar and the somewhat thin and hollow sound of many Cutler mixes.

So even though 6/8/93 and 6/9/93 might not have seemed too amazing for you at the time, I hear them now as quite special, a last bright orange glowing arc of the setting sun disappearing behind the hills before nightfall.

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Poster: piles70 Date: Aug 12, 2011 8:40am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 6/6/93 has a great playin jam!

I'm pretty sure I've never listened to the 6/6 show. I just pulled a couple of random shows and was making a joke about how as a collective group we would argue about any show that was released now matter how good or bad it is. :)
I'll check out the Playin' tomorrow. I don't listen to much Dead towards the end. Mostly the sound of Jerry's voice makes me sad. He just sounds so tired.

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Poster: bkidwell Date: Aug 12, 2011 9:11am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 6/6/93 has a great playin jam!

Well, you did a good job proving your point with that random shot in the dark! I think you will really like the PITB jam, its a good 16 minute version into drums and a lot of cool stuff happens.

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Aug 12, 2011 11:07am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 6/6/93 has a great playin jam!

I listened to the 6/6/93 PITB and was pleasantly surprised that for the most part the band retained some instrument integrity and did not sound synthetic aside from a short outburst of midi flute at about 9:30.I was most impressed with Vince's piano work,he sounded sharp and creative,in the little I have heard of the Vince era he seems a far more talented player than Brent,he plays with some subtlety and nuance,not bombast and overkill.Jerry's was fully engaged and played some very fluid runs throughout,and his guitar tone actually sounded like a guitar which is always nice,while his playing was not all that inventive,at least he seemed interested,and even Billy played some good drums which I found to be very rare post hiatus.

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Poster: bkidwell Date: Aug 12, 2011 12:24pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: some more random keyboard thoughts

I think those are good observations, I am always impressed with how you form your own impressions without letting the conventional wisdom bias you. Most people would never say anything good about Vince compared to Brent, and I remember a thread awhile back where you said you thought 1970 wasn't a strong year for Dark Star because they often used thematic jams in a somewhat predictable way. You do a good job explaining why you hear things the way you do.

Brent definitely had a very "busy" style, he played a lot of fast arpeggiation that sometimes seems formulaic or pulls your ear toward it without adding a lot of melodic content. That said, I personally think that by 89-90 he and Jerry had forged a strong connection and there is a lot of interaction between them that is good. Vince gets a lot of hate but I blame a lot of it on his lame originals and Bralove giving him some bad synth voices and then getting mixed too high, I think he was capable of playing well but also would sometimes freeze up onstage and lose the rhythm a bit.

However, since you started a nice thread on what Keith brought to the band, in comparison with Keith in his first years with the band, this is a good place to acknowledge that none of the other keyboardists are really in the same league - and that applies to T.C. and Pigpen and Ned Lagin as well. TC never sounds very good to me and I can rarely even hear much of him, Pig was fine when he was in his element but not capable of keeping up with Jerry and Phil in the jams, and Ned didn't even want the audience to be able to hear him half the time. Bruce was really good most of the time, there are some incredibly well jammed shows from spring of 91 that don't get enough attention. I would imagine though that you think he overplayed, since he often takes up as much space in the music as Brent does.

Given that we have six different keyboardists to compare, the amount by which Keith at his best was better than anyone is truly impressive. You would think with that much competition, someone else would have come closer to his degree of integration into the music. Keith even puts himself to shame, because he went downhill so badly by his last few tours. He was still good in 76, but by 78, he has stopped adding anything new to the music.

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Aug 12, 2011 3:25pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: some more random keyboard thoughts

I would like to say that Brent was a capable keyboard player and over the span of his career with the band played a lot of fine music,I find fault with his limited imagination and overly aggressive style,LIA mentioned some people like their keyboards more out front,I am not one of them.
I have heard very little GD with Vince,but I usually come away impressed with his ability to play the keyboards,maybe not the sound,but the idea of what he was playing or how well he played it.I saw him the night they played with David Murray and very much enjoyed what he added to some heady,out style jazz music,he seemed at ease in touch with the creative flow around him.

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Poster: bkidwell Date: Aug 11, 2011 1:03pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hypothetical box sets

Well, don't you think the distinction between band-approved p2p trading via torrents (etree) and non-approved (pirate bay or w/e) is important? The band only endorses torrenting soundboards of the non-commercially released shows, torrents of released shows are "piracy" technically, although I suspect the GD are less aggressive about prosecution than most IP holders.

I feel the GD were so far ahead of their time in terms of permitting fan trading of their shows that they have treated me well as a fan, and I want to respect their policies. I know the 2005 policy change about sbds is still pretty controversial so I don't want to stir up any of all those old arguments, just saying that for myself personally I'm happy to follow the band's decisions.

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Aug 11, 2011 1:20pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hypothetical box sets

I agree completely!

But I would like to see every minute of music in the GD vault commercially released or made available in one form or another...

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Poster: TOOTMO Date: Aug 11, 2011 1:34pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hypothetical box sets

"But I would like to see every minute of music in the GD vault commercially released "

Cliff, you realize the vault extends past 76, right? Are you leading the charge for the remastered release of the mid-90's ('93?) "Samba>Liberty>France>Liberty>Samba" feast of a sandwich all washed down with "Money, Money", the Romanée Conti of encores?

Just askin'.
TOOTMO

http://www.archive.org/details/gd95-03-30.sbd.4161.sbeok.shnf

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Aug 11, 2011 1:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hypothetical box sets

It's an excellent question. I don't know the answer. I would have to think more about this...

I'm a completist. I own every single official release the Grateful Dead have put out; every Dick's Picks, Vault Box and Road Trips edition with bonus material. Many of which I have never ever listened to.

Whould I buy the entire post 1981 catalogue just to have everything?

I just don't know...

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Poster: TOOTMO Date: Aug 12, 2011 8:10am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hypothetical box sets

I like to look at the 90's as a palate cleanser. After I've had too many pieces of wedding-cake primal dead, I'll chew on some saltines-y 95's to cleanse my palate and make me hungry for a slab of '73 ribs.

TOOTMO


Here's a 95 with a nice Miracle>Dew and a steel-drummy-sounding Mathilda.
http://www.archive.org/details/gd1995-04-05.sbd.hinko.tetzeli.fix-18097.35258.reflac.flac16

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Aug 11, 2011 10:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Easier to preach than to practice

I think Lemieux also said that Fall '73 would be a great candidate for a megabox. I am not sure i agree. Not because of the music, which is great and I have purchased most of the releases from that tour. I think what is different about E72 is the recording. Fall '73 is all two track tape and none of the releases seem to have the same bright sound as the E72 releases.